So, to all 4 million of you that read this, yesterday I posted a topic discussing LeBron and comparing him and his teams to teams of old (as well as a brief on Derrick Rose). The comments section got heated with a buddy of mine, Dan. We went back and forth on some points, some good banter.
Then, today, ESPN Insider’s Chris Broussard and Ric Bucher had nearly the exact same back and forth. It was unbelievable. In their post, Dan is Broussard and I am Bucher. If you don’t have Insider but would like to read the article, I can pass it along to you via email. But, I thought that the back and forth Dan and I had would make for a good follow-up to yesterday’s post, so here’s the transcript (starting with Dan’s reaction):
DAN:
Lots of good stuff here. Interesting how the numbers show how comparable those three LeBron-related teams are offensively. Also interesting, when you look at offensive efficiencies, this year's Heat are at 109.3, last year's Heat (who stunk aside from Wade) were at 104.5 and last year's Cavs were at 108.8. So you're right, LeBron's teams have always been about the same level over the years.
I think you kind of miss a bit of my point when when I talk about his teammates holding him back. When I say that (and I think when other people do too), they mean that for the playoffs, not the regular season. Obviously, the 2009 regular season Cavs were a great team. They won 66 games! I don't think anyone's arguing that they should be winning 70 every year just because they have LeBron on the team. The type of cast might have had a decent enough talent level for the regular season, but that talent was distributed the wrong way for the playoffs.
The playoffs are a different animal. You can get by in the regular season following the '09 Cavs' model of one great player surrounded by a bunch of role players, but over the course of a 7 game series against a tough defensive opponent, that simply is not going to work. No matter how great LeBron was in those '09 playoffs against the Magic (and take a look back, he was incredible), it would have been damn near impossible for the Cavs to win that series, especially with no-shows from the other "good" players on the team. Mo Williams shot 35% in their four losses to the Magic. 35%! He's supposed to be their second best player! The level of play that would be required to overcome that would have been incredibly high. Sure, LeBron did not play well enough for his team to win, but I don't you could substituted a single other player in the NBA from that season (or any season that didn't have Michael Jordan) for LeBron and the result would have been any different. In fact, they probably don't even win 2 games. It's unreasonable to expect LeBron to be Jordan.
The point is, that team depended on LeBron's greatness more than any other team. Regardless of Mo Williams' talent and ability as a basketball player, he's not the kind of guy you want shouldering the load in the playoffs. He proved that in 2009 and again in 2010 when he shot 41% in the playoffs. It's not that LeBron's team was full of a bunch of bums. It was that none of them could be a true second banana. Duncan had Ginobili and Parker who could take over when necessary. Kobe couldn't win without Shaq or Gasol. That's how these things go.
That's why I don't think comparing that Cavs team to this year's Bulls is a fair comparison. This years Bulls are FAR deeper. While they won't win 66 games, this team is much more equipped to win in the playoffs. Think of all the guys on this team capable of stepping up if Rose falters (or just doesn't have a typical unfuckingbelievable Derrick Rose game) - Deng, Boozer, maybe Noah, even Kyle Korver. Think about it, there's a better chance of Korver getting hot (in my opinion) and knocking down 6 threes in a game than any player on the Cavs team other than LeBron or Williams. And he's, like, the 5th or 6th offensive option! Like the '09 Cavs, the Bulls don't have a chance at winning a seven game series if their best player doesn't play at an extremely high level. But they're is also less of a chance the critical members of the supporting cast lay an egg for an entire series either. No player, no matter how great, can win when that happens.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your main point is that this Heat team is good, that Cavs team was good, so LeBron should stop making excuses and win a championship already. You acknowledge that he's a great player, so what exactly are you saying is the problem? Why do you think his teams haven't won? Was it his fault? Does he need to get better? How much better do you expect him to be? It has to be somebody's fault, right? If you're not going to blame LeBron, you have to look somewhere. You can say he's not clutch, but the stats Hollinger linked to today proved that's not true (You have to admit he was at least comparable to Rose and Kobe and other people who have been labeled clutch). So what is it? My basic point is that the Cavs team was constructed to be a good regular season team, but not a good playoff team. That's why I think they didn't win.
MARK:
There were basically two points to this.
1) That Cavs team wasn't terrible. They went 66-16 and lost to a Magic team in the ECF that was really good defensively and was a terrible matchup for Cleveland due to their size. I think it's ridiculous that people say LeBron has never played on a good team. Yes, if you isolate each player, they don't look good on paper. But they were the classic case of the whole being bigger than the sum of the parts (why I compared them to this year's Bulls). They may have lacked the elite All-Star level players he has now, but they were a good team. I think too many people make excuses for LeBron, and I think he's too willing to accept those excuses instead of going out and getting better himself (not that he isn't great, but there are ways he could improve. Also, this is why I made the comment about DRose).
I don't hate LeBron. I don't like LeBron. I'm just disappointed in what he is, because he could be better. But when you're the most gifted player in the league and your body is built like Stan Lee drew it when you're only 18, it's probably tough to push yourself.
Do I think he should already have a ring? Yes. Compare the Bulls 90-91 team and the Lakers team that they faced. On paper, the Bulls were totally overmatched. The Lakers frontcourt was unbelievable in comparison to what the Bulls rolled out. But Jordan still won.
History, the players we root for, and who comes through has such an enormous influence on how we perceive athletes. Horace Grant averaged 11pt/8reb for his career, but people in Chicago think of him as so much more than he was. Grant, Bill Cartright (9.6pts/6.2reb), Cliff Levingston, and Will Perdue outplayed James Worthy, Sam Perkins, Vlade Divac, and Elden Campbell. Huh?!
Isolate those names and think about that. Those guys stink in comparison to who the Lakers rolled out! We don't think of Grant and Cartright as crap that Jordan played with...because we won. But ultimately, that was due to Jordan. The guy was insane in that series. It's a different league now than it wasn't then. Teams aren't as deep. But Jordan won with guys that believed in a system, he helped mold Pippen into who he was (a guy that wasn't even destined to make it to the NBA coming out of high school). That's why I'm disappointed in LeBron. He had 3 chances to do that. But because they lost, his teammates get perceived as losers and not legends like the Championship teams. All of these guys in the NBA are elite players when it comes down to it. Jordan DID single-handedly carry a team with a bunch of scraps to a championship (Pippen wasn't quite the guy he would become in 90-91, but he was close). I don't think we should make excuses for LeBron. He just came up short. That's it. I feel like people are LeBron apologists simply because they want to see him become what Jordan was. A perennial winner. But he isn't yet. He's just a highly talented player. If you want to crown their asses, then crown 'em!
By the way, Jordan in 90-91 vs the Lakers: 31ppg, 11apg, 6.6rpg, 56%(fg), 50%(3pt), 85%(ft), 2.8stl, 1.4blk... he was only being guarded by Magic Johnson...and being hand-checked... i'm sure Hedo Turkoglu is a far superior defender. (To be fair, LeBron's #'s vs ORL in 08-09 were: 39ppg, 8apg, 8.3rpg, 49%(fg), 29.7%(3pt), 75%(ft), 1.2stl, 1.2blk. Still, nasty...but he shot 37 3's at a 29.7% clip. Questionable.)
2) Basically, the whole point of this for me was just being annoyed by Hollinger. He operates in a world where statistics, and his PER system, are the end-all be-all. And it's not. There is so much that happens on a basketball court that isn't captured by numbers. You can use them to argue things any way you want (as I showed in #1 up there, which I'm sure is counterable with other #'s). But I am just bewildered by Hollinger. I don't think he can just watch and appreciate basketball without using #'s to say that Player X is better than Player Y. There are a million intangibles! The system that guy is in, things he's asked to do, does he carry the offense? How much energy does he use on offense compared to defense? It's not a video game, ya know. The guy doesn't have an energy bar with 100stamina and pre-loaded attributes.
There are always intangibles and things that aren't captured by statistics, despite how fun it is to argue about them. Hollinger doesn't really care about that stuff, which is why I think it's moronic for people to view his opinion as always correct - or to get violently angry in his comments section. Yeah, sometimes you can use those #'s to help make a point one way or another. But you still need to watch the game.
He's giving you his best opinion based on calculations HE makes, on a system he feels is "accurate". It's totally circumstantial. Maybe a REB should be worth more or less in PER, but right now, it's worth what Hollinger thinks a REB is worth. Maybe he should figure out a way to calculate one-timers and incorporate those (DRose drives, kicks to Bogans, swings to Korver for 3 = a different type of assist). Maybe he should calculate assists where a guy winds up going to the FT-line after not converting the basket.
I'm just rambling at this point. But intangibles is why I can't take Hollinger seriously, and the fact that he seems to ignore them when stating his opinions is kind of ridiculous.
E.g. Kobe beat LeBron for MVP in 2006-07, but LeBron's #'s were actaully better. LeBron was really freaking good that year. So, does that mean we were "wrong" for giving it to Kobe? Should we throw the award out? How often have we been wrong in the history of this award? I'd say probably more times than we were "right" if we based it off Hollinger's calculations. Obviously, you have to weigh intangibles, which Hollinger does not do.
DAN:

First off, I don't think I'm making "excuses" for LeBron. Do I like LeBron? Yes. Do I enjoy watching him play? Absolutely. But I watched those series. And if the numbers aren't good enough to prove that he wasn't the biggest reason his team lost to the Magic, then the eye test sure was. His team missed so many shots - open shots- when they needed to it was ridiculous. Seriously, name me another player who wins that series single-handedly against a Magic team that was great on defense. Aside from Jordan, there's not a single player I think for which a strong case can be made.
Could LeBron be a better player? Of course. You can say that about anyone in the league. But in my opinion he's the best player in basketball right now and has been for at least the past 3 years. You trade him for any player in the league and his new team gets better. I believe that based on watching him and the numbers back me up. Could he take fewer threes? Sure (he's actually done that this year). Could he develop his post game (which he has made some effort to do this year)? You bet. These are things he will continue to work on. Shot selection improves with maturity and experience. And you can add facets to your game with time. You can't just snap you fingers and have a post game. Remember, Kobe didn't have his famous summer with Hakeem until last year - after his 13th season in the league. Yes, Derrick Rose added some stuff this year and he deserves enormous credit for that. Is that something you really really love to see a player do? Yes. Does that make him a better player than LeBron? No. Intangibles are important, but I'm taking tangibles over them every time.
But it seems like the fact that he's so athletically gifted almost raises the bar too high. For his first few years in the league he was doing things athletically we had only rarely seen before. This raised people's expectations for him (and he sure helped that with the whole "Chosen One" thing) to the point of thinking he might be the greatest ever. But the fact remains, he's been the best player in the league for a few years and apparently that's not good enough for people. They want him to be even better. They want every facet of his game to be as jaw-dropping as his dunks. And I think that's unreasonable. If you want him to be Jordan, that's not going to happen. But seriously, is that the standard? That seems ridiculous to me. You know who else isn't as good as Jordan? Every other player ever. That includes Kobe, one of the 10 best of all time. And only now, after over a decade of measuring him up against the greatest athlete in team sports history, are we beginning to let Kobe be his own level of greatness. If you think that's being an apologist for LeBron, then mark me down as one. But saying he's not the greatest player ever isn't my definition of apologizing for him.
And again, if you want to compare Jordan's numbers against the Lakers to LeBron's in the Orlando series, it's going to be tough for us to do so since we weren't there in 1991 (because stats don't mean much without context - a point we agree on). But from what I've heard about Magic, he was a pretty bad defender. And those Lakers didn't exactly have Dwight Howard in the middle protecting the rim. You know why LeBron had to take all those threes? Because his team was losing, they needed to come back and the rest of the guys on his team sure as hell weren't hitting there's. I think you put it best when you said the Cavs "came up short". They did. Sometimes that just happens. You run into a bad matchup (like the Celtics in '08. I think people forget how good LeBron was in that series too against one of the better teams of the decade). Saying he should have a championship right now makes sense when looking at his talent, but explain to me when he should have won that championship. It sure as hell wasn't in 2009 and it probably wasn't before that when he was running with Larry Hughes and Ricky Davis either.
I'm not going to get into the Hollinger stuff much. That's a matter of opinion. But I don't think you give him enough credit for watching games. Just because he likes stats doesn't mean he doesn't watch the games. He might emphasize stats more than other writers, but that doesn't mean he doesn't put those into context by watching the games. He does. I read him a lot. Maybe not enough for your liking, but that's a matter of opinion.
I realized I asked and answered myself a lot of questions in that post. Do I regret that? No. Was it a little annoying? Maybe.
MARK:
Clarification: Kobe didn't spend the summer with Hakeem, Dwight Howard did. And it was actually only 3 days. The media/tv broadcasters have kind of misconstrued that into them moving into an apartment together. Kobe actually began heavily using his post-game after his 2002-03 knee injury that he rehabbed in Colorado (so when he was 25 years old).
Don't agree with you that LeBron taking the 3's because his team is losing makes that a good decision. He's shooting at a 30% clip. That's when you drive to the hole and get fouled (LeBron's best basketball move), or kick it out to an open teammate. That is how they won 66 out of 82 games during the regular season.
Also of note: Dwight Howard wasn't in the lane in 1991, but you were allowed to hit guys a whole lot harder back then than you can now.
My point really though is that people have made a lot of excuses for why he hasn't won (not necessarily you). I'm sure he'll win one eventually, and I personally don't want to put him on this Jordan pedestal (on top of the fact that it's a completely different league and Jordan was a completely different type of player). But the media does want him on that pedestal, and that's where "apologists" come from.
These are the same people that, if Cleveland beats Orlando in that series and wins the title, would revere how well guys like Mo Williams, Z, Wally, Delonte, and Big Ben played for them. Instead, they lose, and LeBron's never played with a good player (until Miami).
You don't go 66-16 by accident. I obviously agree with you and the playoff numbers that those guys didn't play at the same level against Orlando that they did in the regular season (whether it was the matchup or them coming up short, who knows). But an 82 game litmus test of 66-16 basketball is probably a better test than a 6 game series to evaluate a team based on "if they can play basketball".
I think the media just lacks some accountability with LeBron because they want him to be as good as Jordan. And as you and I both know, that's impossible. Like I said, the purpose of this was not to hate on LeBron, but on the media's portrayal of his career - which I think has been misleading.